The Gaming Den

The base 3.5 races don't really work well, pigeon-holing characters into various classes and are chosen on the basis of "what makes my class awesome" rather than for flavor. In an attempt to fix this problem and a few others that races come, I present the following:

Simplified Races

Most people don't really care about the "small stuff" that races get. Dwarven stonecunning rarely matters, nor does their weapon familiarity, their bonus to save against poisons, or their bonus to appraise checks. For the most part they can keep these things.

The big stuff (bonuses to ability scores and other substantial abilities) are removed and instead replaced with three powers; a combat power, a utility power, and a passive power. A DM can decide what constitutes "big stuff", but a good start includes any ability adjustment things and anything that shifts the RNG that's used often. This gives races interesting things to do that don't suck too much, while allowing people to choose a race based on the flavor or concept rather than what's most optimal for the class/build they're taking.

I was right with you up until this point:

Ghostwheel wrote:The base 3.5 races don't really work well, pigeon-holing characters into various classes and are chosen on the basis of "what makes my class awesome" rather than for flavor.

Lolwut?

I have had no problem making a viable class build using any particular race type. Humans can play as any class, halfings can play as any class, even half-orcs can play as any class. The classes themselves may be full of fail, but that's not the fault of races. If I can make a class good in 3.5, I can do it with any race. The only things I didn't have success with was making halfling grapplers or trippers, and that's because of size modifiers being so damned painful, nothing to do with racial mods.

However, I don't see any size modifiers in your re-write so I'm assuming you scrapped them. I suppose kudos for that since it is a huge power-up to melee type characters and now Halflings can excel at every possible niche. Long live the master race! Then again, you imply that there are modifiers for size, but none are noted in the wiki in the link to small. So maybe they are all the same in which case, meh... these changes don't really do much to help small creatures function in roles that they weren't good at before. Honestly a -2 strength was not the reason why barbarian halflings had it rough. +1 init, +2 AC and +1 attack compensate for that. Having smaller weapons, limited reach, and a -4 size penalty to everything up to and including your mom... that's what hurts.

Getting rid of stat modifiers is fine I suppose, but they were never that big a deal in 3.5. In 4e stat modifiers are god because the range is so tight on the RNG that a +1 here or there is crucial, and all your attack abilities are based upon single stat so there really you need to put all your bonuses in the same pile. In 3e... I never felt that pressure.

In 3e it sucks a bit to have a -2 in your primary stat, but it is not the end of the world. And an extra +2 to your primary stat certainly is not a requirement. Removing stat modifiers is an okay change I suppose, but meh, not really necessary but it doesn't ruin things either. It is weird having small creatures like halflings and gnomes able to be just as strong and capable as an orc. I could see legitimate concerns that some suspension of disbelief is lost in that there is no difference in stats of races.

So if the combat Size mods are out then I suppose I like the changes mostly because I think size modifier is an oppressive blight upon non-casters. The racial abilities are more flavorful and in some cases more powerful and important than before, so that's at least a boost to the interestingness of the races... doesn't make them more balanced, but I that's fine.

Little things:
Spell-like abilities should probably get durations and caster levels noted on there.

Using "per encounter" in power descriptions... meh. Since that is not a 3.5 term it may need clarification. Are traps an encounter?

The races:

Centaurs are listed as quadraped. I think you mean either quadriped or quadruped. Quadraped sounds like some hentai activity. You may wish to discretely list the modifiers that one gains for having 4 feet (increased carrying capacity and a defense bonus versus some combat maneuvers).

Duergar enlarge for 1 round. Why bother? Enlarge is not a blast ability, so having it for 1 round really does almost diddly squat. Enlarge lets you control a battlefield or do a combat maneuver with a +4 bonus. The damage bump is weak for just 1 round.

An elf with a rocking spot/listen modifier are now required for every party that doesn't want to get caught by a surprise round. Thanks to Keen Senses.
And for Elven Precision why a non-action? It seems like free action would work just as well so why not have it as a free action so that you stick to actual game terms instead of creating new ones?

Fire Genasi, if you changed "Fear no Flames" to "Fear no Lava" then I would be pleased.

Goblins are likely to be using Cowardly Retreat much like Expeditious Retreat. I presume that this is a design intent that goblins are the go-to guy for getting face-to-face with the enemy caster.

Half-elf ability "Two Worlds in One"... is confusingly named for an ability that has nothing to do with their heritage. Something like "Roll with Blow" sounds more appropriate.

Half-giant ability "Rock Throw" is a bit confusing. Do they get to find a nearby large rock whenever they need it? Do they have to spend an action picking it up? Is this all a standard action? What is a large rock for weapon purposes (damage, threat, range)? Does the large rock even do any damage?

Half-orc ability "Furious Charge" isn't quite clear to me. Does your base speed go up by 10' (so +40' to run speed, +20' to charge speed) or does only your total movement go up by 10'?

The human ability to get a bonus feat that they can swap out daily... that seems pretty stupendous. Human casters get all item creation feats for free which I guess is a biggie. And for the "Talented" ability, why the hate upon Use Magic Device? I don't get that restriction.

Siren ability to Drown is impressively underwhelming for how scary it sounds. Fail a fortitude save or lose a move action? That is less impressive than a simple trip attack. Siren Song needs tags. Sonic, Mind Affecting, Spell-like?, etc. In fact, now that I look back, I think a lot of seemingly spell-like abilities probably need tags. It just became glaringly obvious with the Siren Song to me.

Lycanthrope seems incomplete. Passive ability I presume will be Silver DR. It seems to exclude Swan lycanthropes due to the flight restriction. This is a grievous error of whose importance I was not previously aware until recently.

Worth noting that this came about between a conversation GW and I had, inspired by Frank's ideas of each races having three abilities. That's why it's similar - I talked with him about it after sharing my frustration with 4e stupidness.

erik wrote:Lolwut?

I may disagree with a lot of Grimoire, but this at least is true. A few races are generic, but nobody plays a Grey Elf unless they are also a Wizard.

I've tried to make all new races I write generic enough to support most character classes. Though I've only ever written two races.

Surgo wrote:A few races are generic, but nobody plays a Grey Elf unless they are also a Wizard.

The OP seemed more concerned that all wizards are grey elves [edit: or maybe he didn't... I might be misattributing there], than that all grey elves are wizards. I grant that both are problems however, if they actually happen.

I think races in 3e are mostly uninteresting, and approve of these sort of changes on that basis. I just don't think the attribute bonuses are that empowering. A grey elf wizard gets +2 to their only stat they care about. This makes them a bit better but does not make them the only class that you'd ever want to play a wizard as. So the concern that all wizards are grey elves is unwarranted.

I think the situation that you describe where all grey elves are wizards does happen much more frequently (they are also rogues sometimes). So it is a problem.

However, the grey elf problem has its roots in that there's so many flavors of elves as far as stats go, and very little flavor of elves in any other regard.

I go "I'm playing an elf" and I then get to choose to have a bonus to my attributes I prefer for my class. It just so happens that grey=wizard/rogue, wood=archer/barbarian, wild=cleric, high=generic, half=suck, etc. Because there is essentially no difference other than hair color and attribute points between the different elves.

There really is no good reason to have 5+ flavors of elf with different attribute mods. If there were only one type of elf then you would actually see some grey elf rangers, clerics, etc.

Frankly I'd just get rid of all the crap elves and take just the two most flavorful as this race list seems to do (so kudos for that). Well, sadly half-elves were kept leaving the elf total at 3. I'd get rid of them too and just give a footnote for half-elves/orcs: "Hey, you can call yourself a half-whatever but you must use the racial abilities of only one of your parents. Have your appearance be anywhere between your two parents as you please."

Would half-elves and half-orcs be sacred enough cows to keep, since their presence inundates a number of fantasy books?

I could even see doing away with just the half-orc, but I feel that the half-elf has their own niche as diplomancers and such (not the actual build, but suggestion gives them something interesting).

Also, I limited size modifiers to grapple and the like to be equal to the opposite of one's bonus to AC and attack, so all that small gives is -1 to those checks. I also changed special attacks to be more simple, which I'll unveil in a future spotlight. That said, halflings don't get -2 to Str, just a +1 bonus to attack and AC from size.

As far as "encounters" go, they're what the DM says they are. But sure, I'd call a trap an encounter; however, since most traps catch you flatfooted, many abilities wouldn't be able to be used before you took the damage.

@Spell-likes: Added a note at the top of the page to make ranges and caster level equal to HD.

@Centaurs: Changed and added.

@Duergar: I could see making it last for 2 rounds at most, but remember that it's a swift action and won't affect your main shtick too much. Plus it's good if you don't have enough movement to reach an opponent. Another idea is to make it an immediate action to catch people off guard when they move within 10' of you so you can suddenly grow and stand them still. Thoughts?

@Elf: Fortunately, surprise rounds don't completely decide all of combat under this system, so it's okay to be ambushed. And non-actions are game terms. It's a free action that you can use when it's not your turn, such as on an AoO.

@Fire Genasi: Do you think it would be better if it was Fire Resistance equal to one's HD?

@Goblins: Sure, or running away. Gobbies are often portrayed as cowardly, and I wanted to give them abilities that support that shtick.

@Half-elf: I actually wanted to give them something that identifies that they're a half-breed and nothing really came to mind. Do you have any other ideas for their utility power?

@Half-giant: They find a large rock and throw it as a single standard action. And rocks generally do damage based on how much they weigh, as per CW iirc.

@Half-orc: Your base speed increases by 10', so 20' total on a charge and 40' on a move.

@Human: I was actually thinking of changing it to getting a bonus feat 1/encounter that lasts for 2 or 3 rounds. Do you think that this would be better? And crafting is mostly gone under this system. Finally, the hate for UMD is there because it's a skill that can in theory move the game to wizard-level all on its own.

@Siren: You're giving up a swift action to potentially deny someone a full attack or the ability to hit an ally if they're far enough away. This isn't a good thing? And why do we need tags? I don't mind so much if it's usable on every single thing you meet--just change the flavor. Undead obviously can't suffocate, so it won't affect them, but apart from that I don't feel that subtypes are really needed. If you truly think it's necessary for the ability and others, could you expand on this a little more?e.

@Lycanthropes: I actually had the shifter abilities as lycan ones early on, but after talking with people we decided that the main thing about lycans--in fact, the only thing that truly identified them--was their ability to turn into other creatures, and if you were one you had to have that ability.
Why do swan lycanthropes have to exist?

I don't mind terribly the existence of half-elves and half-orcs... but they don't really need their own unique schtick. Half elves being disliked by each of their heritage yet also being great diplomats does not strike me as being sufficient niche to merit its own independence. That's why my recommendation was simply to let half-breeds look like whatever they please of their two parents, and choose to have one or the other parent's racial ability sets. Half-breed can be a purely cosmetic effect.

The importance of tags is so that you know how things interact. Does a siren's song work in Silence? Does it work in an anti-magic field? Does it work against mindless creatures (or creatures with defense against mind-affecting effects)? That's why you want tags.

The swan lycanthrope is because they're funny and there strangely is precedent. Likewise the lava comment for fire genasi is because you are immune to lava with a tiny bit of fire resistance, which is silly. Neither was suggestion couched in much seriousness.

Non-action, is not an official game term in 3e. Sounds like a house-created game term. Free actions still cover non-action as you describe it because there are free actions you can perform when it is not your turn. AoOs are free actions for example.

That's all I got for right now.

erik wrote:Non-action, is not an official game term in 3e. Sounds like a house-created game term. Free actions still cover non-action as you describe it because there are free actions you can perform when it is not your turn. AoOs are free actions.

[url=http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Action_Types#Not_an_Action wrote:SRD[/url]]
Not an Action

Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else.

He's using non-action to refer to this. It's the type of (non-)action you take when 5-foot stepping or hiding/tumbling as part of a move action.

Also, that link does not list AoOs as free actions. It describes them as "free attacks." In any case, free actions can't be used out of turn in 3.5, so an AoO is either its own type of action or it's a trigger that gives you an attack action out of turn. You could use some other interpretation, but any that uses free actions is on sketchy ground.

Gah. I searched "non-action" and it came up blank.

Still, I stand by that AoO are free actions. They are clearly actions and they are clearly free.

Of course I'd stand by that 5' steps are also actions that do take some literal amount of time to complete... strangely the rules say otherwise despite all reality to the contrary.

By reading "not an action" it sounds like shit such as delaying, breathing and blinking would be stuff that is not an action. Mostly stuff that is literally not an action, or things that you don't care about which literally take no time away from completing your actions. Sadly whoever wrote the rules suffered some sort of brain seizure and included 5' steps as a part of that table.

So meh. I'll just submit that the rule "not an action" as written is idiotic and unnecessary, and the inclusion of 5' steps is doubly so, but it *is* written. Still, sanity suggests that one use Free Actions rather than Not an Actions whenever possible when writing rules.

[edit]Since you edited in a bit about free actions not being usable out of turn, I suggest checking out that Speech is allowable as a free action when it is not your turn.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions wrote:d20srd[/url]]
Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

Speech and Feather Fall both have exception clauses. Attacks of Opportunity are not defined as free actions and can be used out of turn, so it makes more sense to define them as an action type that can be used out of turn than to invent a special exception clause for them.

It doesn't really matter, though. The actual action that you take when making an AoO is an attack action, so the rules only get fuzzy when you try to define the action that gives you that attack action.

AoOs aren't free. The each cost an AoO!

LR wrote:Speech and Feather Fall both have exception clauses. Attacks of Opportunity are not defined as free actions and can be used out of turn, so it makes more sense to define them as an action type that can be used out of turn than to invent a special exception clause for them.

It doesn't really matter, though. The actual action that you take when making an AoO is an attack action, so the rules only get fuzzy when you try to define the action that gives you that attack action.

Something that is "Not an action" isn't really anything that you can explicitly do out of turn any more than free actions. In fact they have less claim to being done out of turn since they are things done as an inherent part of another action and they list no examples of something that is "not an action" that is done out of turn. 5' steps certainly cannot be done out of turn. At least free actions do have some precedence for being done out of turn.

I should note that my nerd rage at 5' steps being listed as "not an action" is entirely directed at the writers of DnD and not anyone on this board, since I think that is a poor rules writing decision. And yes I am arrogant enough to think I know better than the people who designed the durned game.

Ugh, too much uneccessary detail to track and learn.

I've become more and more a fan of "single" species; who have their mental and cultural writeups done well. While having their crunch be relatively non-intrusive to gameplay, and especially combat.

Giving species unique ways to maintain caloric intake; interact with their environment; or have a reason to exist among other species; are things people can accept without having to remember all sorts of details.

The lists for each species in the link could be compiled into three "master" lists; and each PC picks what they feel fits their character.

Remember, punishing organic PCs is the fucking devil, and anyone who pushes species material on PCs that actually "matter" mechanically to game play can suck a barrel of cocks.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Ugh, too much uneccessary detail to track and learn.

It is certainly no more unnecessary detail than 3e races already had.

Compare:

Combat Ability - Artful Dodger: Once per encounter as a non-action, you may have an opponent reroll an attack roll they just made that targeted you, or reroll a saving throw you just made.
Passive Ability - Small: You are small, with all the benefits and drawbacks that go with it, and reduce your base speed by 1/3.
Utility Ability - Hide in Plain Sight: You can use the hide skill even while being observed, though you still need some sort of cover or concealment as the standard skill dictates. Hide is always a class skill for you.

versus:

Also see the Halfling monster listing.

* +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength.
* Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
* Halfling base land speed is 20 feet.
* +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks.
* +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
* +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
* Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
* Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass halfling’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

Also, as much as I am ambivalent towards stat modifiers being removed, that change does go a long way towards helping out organic characters a heckuvalot more than the normal 3e methods.

It seems that your main complaints apply much more towards core 3e than to these changes, JE.

Explain yo self foo!

erik wrote:Shtuff

What he said.

Now in doing that comparison I did notice that languages aren't addressed. Are you simply doing away with racial languages? We never really use them much in game anyway whenever I play, so I don't think they'll be missed. Just curious there.

And the size entry gets unfair treatment in that comparision. But even still it is 4 lines versus 8 if we take the size entries out of it, making JE's complaint kind of weird.

Upon further revelations I am still quite against the usage of Not an Action or Non Action as any meaningful descriptor for an ability. Not an Actions have zero precedent for being used out of turn (as they are intended to be a nominal portion of another action), and Free Action covers any use of them already.

I have a whole gigantic spiel on how there are only 3 types of languages (ones all the players know, ones some of the players know, and ones none of the players know) and the DM will create/use languages based on one of those three depending on the circumstances they want for a story, thus making the actual languages not matter at all.

Unfortunately I must run off to class (though I might post from there if anyone wants me to expand), but yes, I have little but indifference under a slight layer of contempt for racial languages.

And I don't mind changing things to "free actions which you can use out of your turn". It's just semantics and won't really change anything.